Two Player: Skill versus Tradition

[Shattered Rift]

I'd appreciate hearing opinions from anyone who stumbles across this thread.


As most of you know, I'm almost strictly a One Player battler, and rarely glance at Two Player for any longer than is necessary to rate a given weapon. However, I recently had a few thoughts come to me.

First off, I'd like to reconfirm a few things about Two Player.

One, are Freezers still being used virtually always on the first turn? Or are people pulling late-freezes more often nowadays? (With tanks around I'd imagine they might be.)

Two, are sets still following the Primary, Secondary, Tertiary, junk/stealer/fourth weapon (possibly shield in the case of tanks), Downsize! (possibly shield in the case of tanks), Healer, Freezer, Bomb pattern?


I'm going to assume for a brief moment that nothing's changed since I last dabbled in Two Player and that everything I said above is true. I'm not sure if it will matter a whole lot if it isn't.

Freezers and healers usually negate. Either both players freeze each other, or each gets in a freeze and deals an approximately equivalent amount of damage to each other. Healers simply extend the battle by an extra 50% of health without actually shifting the balance (ignoring the extra range in Kacheek Life Potion, and assuming that if one player is using a full healer so is the other one, thus extending the battle up to 100% longer, and in that case slightly altering the balance depending on exact timing).

For those who haven't realized what I'm getting at, who thinks Two Player battlers would be more interesting and strategic without freezers and healers? (Further, perhaps only allowing multiple-use, non-healing items.)

I'm not trying to cast a vote in favor of those no-freeze battlers who aren't fortunate enough to own a 100% freezer, but I'm asking from a standpoint of strategy.

Think about it for a moment: dropping the freezer and healer would open two slots of your set. Two slots where weapons, dual-duties, or shields could be placed (totaling six or seven). Whereas right now there's only room for four or five in a set.

[mathbits]

As a battler, I almost never use the freezer on the first turn, that is, if I could get my hands on a 100% freezer. The point in building up high HP with the lab is to win these battles: where your opponent freeze-bombs you. Of course, I've never had my hands on a Honey Potion, but I've experienced enough to know its true power. Personally, I use the freezer on about the third turn of the game, where the opponent is least expecting it.

About the sets: the order in which the items are set up are quite important. I don't have the space in my set for a junk item. Instead, I put my weakest dual-duty weapon in the first slot. Then comes the Downsize!, then freezer, then two constants, then shield, then healer, then bomb.

Now, if freezers and healers were not integrated into a game, I suppose there will be a lot more tanks in the BD. The dual-duty weapons will reign over pure constants because of the defence they give. I'd guess that the Mask of Coltzan would be used more because using a shield in one turn would mean dealing no damage.

[Nightwind]

If I was building a no freeze set to last against the world, I'd include a multi use healer.

say:

Bracelet Of Kings
Everlasting Crystal Apple
Mega Cabbage

Sure, I could list the nova triplets, or the two from the fay sisters, but for the sake of discussion i like to keep most items under the combined value of all items in my set.

While the original post stipulated that healers tended to cancel out, these three, and to a lesser extent useful items all the way down to fighting folder, are persistent, and continue to have use beyond the single turn. A strongly defended player who guesses right when you attack could heal back to full given time.

I think that if we ever see a shield released that also includes healing then tanks will gain a larger foothold in the battledome.

A world of no freezers would surely have more dual duty use.

[UmbreonMatt]

I'd say freezers are generally used on the first turn. If nothing else, late freezing is frowned upon, and often mentioned in the same breath as Scroll-Pot-ing and Poisoning when requesting for 2-P battles. And doing it is just that much of a risk. I once went for a late freeze against a lower league pet, confident he wouldn't do anywhere near enough to wipe me out. Dual FSS gave me a major fright the next turn. The payoff IS amazing, make no mistake about that (as one particularly hilarious loss to Heidi will testify), but I guess players just don't want to try for it unless they have a guaranteed shot at it, or have pretty much no other way to win. What I say probably doesn't apply to Boost battling though, where hp values can get pretty out of hand.

Set variety is actually greater than you think, from what I've seen. One particular trend I've noticed when it came to my opponents is a tendency towards fewer constants. I believe the introduction of Glittery Fairy Dust has played a major role in this by cutting down the need for icon variety to bypass tanks. I honestly don't see Downsize! that often, but G-Shield use is widespread, even by those without the necessary defence to take advantage. I've seen things ranging from 2 bombs to 3 shields, so I'd say sets aren't quite as standardized as before. Oh, and people have begun to neglect what they put in their first slot. Space constraints, methinks.

Freezers largely negate, yes, but I'd disagree on the healers. Forgot to take Crisp Blue Tunic into consideration?

The exclusion of freezers and healers from the BD would mean greater variety in sets, but I think it's unfair to say it'd be more strategic. As it stands, freezing and healing rounds do carry their fair share of strategy. The first round will boil down to who can eke out that 1-2 icon advantage sometimes, and requires more thinking than you think () especially if it's a second or further battle with someone and you've already seen his earlier opening move. With regard to healing, you'll want to hit your opponent hard when he heals, and try to prevent him from doing that to you when you heal, which makes for quite an interesting series of moves during that period of the battle. And CBT can have a huge impact on a battle.

All in all, I'd leave the 2-P BD as it is. Not too sure about mathbits' prediction of an increase in tanks (already one heck of a lot of them as it is), let alone more MoC use (*sniff* MoC users are becoming a dying breed in the BD. Unthinkable, I tell you, unthinkable!)

[+Star Dust]

Generally yes most people freeze first round, but I have seen a *ton* of pets pull late-freeze tactics with me on my 550 boost pet and I hate it because a lot of the times it works (my pet has relatively low hp to its str boost, and people who pull the late-freeze tactic typically have a good 200 hp on me). Without the hp advantage, I rarely do late freeze. So I say the freezer stays because it keeps things lively (and I get more to complain about ). The fact that the freezer uses up one weapon choice first move also leaves a lot of variety in trying to predict what the second weapon your opponent will use that first round.

As for healer, I think when and how you heal requires some strategy in itself. Even if both pets are using a full healer, it takes up a slot when they do heal, and if you can predict that move right, leaves you at an advantage. Or you can pull an offensive move when you think your opponent believes you are going to heal (wow what a confusing way to put it ).

Currently I only have 2 multi-use constants in my set since I'm relatively defense-heavy. But even then, I think the healer and freezer both should stay even if they seem redundant at times. I have been put into a pickle against stealers before since I really have nothing to put in that slot that wouldn't hurt me.

Personally I haven't seen much variety. PCC is a staple across most sets (hence the abundance of pteri's). GFD is pretty popular, but I have had such bad luck with mine I've replaced it with a somewhat weaker weapon (I hate unpredictable weapons). Gshield/RoTL is very popular, and you see one or the other depending on the league you're battling in. Generally for me you're guaranteed to see a gshield in higher boosts, a bunch of RoTL's at lower leagues.

And I have a little tank tank x) But I haven't adjusted my set for tank battling. When I do, first thing I'll add is a MoC

[Shattered Rift]

Late-freezing strikes me as a massive gamble: you're letting your opponent's bomb through (where you might otherwise Burrow or Sink it). The opponent gains an immediate advantage, and you're forced to make up that difference later. (I'm not saying it can't be done, but the health hit forces you to heal sooner, and your opponent maintains an advantage on you until you go to make it up.)

I wasn't referring to the order, but to the question of what was included: I know that stealing is still occurring frequently enough to keep an eye on the first slot.

I agree that there would be more tanks, but I only think so because NCW's league system caters to them. (Defense would certainly be much more important.)


Interesting, Nightwind. I had been considering healers as out and hadn't thought about the possibility of multi-healers replacing 50% healers in a non-freeze environment.


Yeah, I did forget to consider Crisp Blue Tunic. But mostly because I'm considering the wide-spread effect of what I was thinking about, rather than also considering the various niches.

How many weapons (constants, dual-duties, and I suppose bombs) are in a set? This was mostly the strategy I was referring to. Though I had forgotten basic Two Player theory about healing and freezing turns (though freezing strikes me as having a bit more predictability and less of an effect on the long-term, assuming both players throw their freezers at the same time).


Star Dust, those of us who train Strength first definitely get screwed in that choice in Two Player, .


I was hoping someone would actually find the idea interesting. (I'm not by any means saying it should be done, but it seems to me like it'd greatly add to the Rock/Paper/Scissors aspect of battling.)

[Q77]

Shattered Rift Wrote:Late-freezing strikes me as a massive gamble: you're letting your opponent's bomb through (where you might otherwise Burrow or Sink it). The opponent gains an immediate advantage, and you're forced to make up that difference later. (I'm not saying it can't be done, but the health hit forces you to heal sooner, and your opponent maintains an advantage on you until you go to make it up.)

I wasn't referring to the order, but to the question of what was included: I know that stealing is still occurring frequently enough to keep an eye on the first slot.

Star Dust, those of us who train Strength first definitely get screwed in that choice in Two Player, .


I was hoping someone would actually find the idea interesting. (I'm not by any means saying it should be done, but it seems to me like it'd greatly add to the Rock/Paper/Scissors aspect of battling.)

About late freezing, if you are bombed 2nd turn after a freeze, and are still alive, you would have to heal almost immediately, but your opponent is actually weaker off. Because it can be assumed (usually) that you have a 100% freezer waiting. So this might force the unfrozen player to pull a premature healer, or play over defensively and end up exhausting burrow sink and heal.

Yes I am a semi-lab rat with only trained strength...so I got screwed for 2 player...currently trying to make up for it with full blockers but it's draining my budget =P

As for the real intention of the initial post IMO, it's the idea of 8 actual weapons. IMO, it's not a bad idea. But it's also unfair to those who have spent a portion of there budget on a freezer/healer. So, I think that it would actually make more sense to have 10 weapon slots This would allow for 7 normal weaps, 1 junk weap (Stealer) and the normal freezer+bomber. The downside to this idea is that it caters more to the richer peopel who can afford 10 good weapons. However, this would increase 2p strategy.

For the bigger pets 10 weapons could definitely create some interesting battles.

EDIT-oh and I saw somewhere that late freezing is bunched with scrollpotting,poison and EoDF presumably =P, I think late freezing is a very valid strategy, and does not cause any harm to the opponent, so it definitley should not be taboo

[Shattered Rift]

Q77 Wrote:As for the real intention of the initial post IMO, it's the idea of 8 actual weapons. IMO, it's not a bad idea. But it's also unfair to those who have spent a portion of there budget on a freezer/healer.

Ignore that part. Obviously the only real application of this would be a Limited Tournament, but I'm asking more-or-less as if Freezers (and potentially healers) didn't exist.

[thesovereign]

Freezing on the first turn depends a lot on how much HP the 2 pets have. If they have HP similar to STR there is almost no reason to not freeze first turn since you will die during the freeze turn if you don't 99% of the time (at least in my experience but whenever Ive fought with freeze with these stats my opponents almost alays have an 18 iconer and GBomb.).

For lab rats/tanks though lat freeze is pretty common since it can shut off regenerate, which is much more important that burrow/sink in these types of battles, where STR is small compared to HP so you can survive bomb turns.

Healers require important strategy and timing in tank/lab rat fights to get around shields or to maybe mess up some math to kill them off when they thought they would live.

[heidirose12345]

I like it most when I am battling a person 3 times for a tournament. If I think I can survive their freeze bomb, then I will do a late freeze on the second round and then bomb them and sometimes kill them. And then by the third battle, they don't know what I am going to do. I have noticed that people in that situation then tend to freeze on the second round, so I just freeze on the first and wipe them out. Works so nicely. Great on lower STR boost tanks - they can't always wipe me out as easily when I am frozen. Sometimes I have resorted to diamond dust/ fiery gaze when I know that I am not going to win. I managed to win against a stronger person 2/3 times with freeze abilitys. Though I know that a lot of people do disagree with the use of them, so yeah its probably not a smart strategy. Though overall, I am a person that finds freezing to be my favourite battledome strategy.

When you heal is also based on strategy. If you are using a percentage healer, its a gamble. Can you survive another round? What weapons will your opponent be using on the next round?

Healers and freezers are a massive part of BD strategy. I think that if they were taken out then it would be kinda boring. Sure, it would bring more focus to weapons/ shields/ dual dutys, but I don't think it would be worth it. As others have suggested, increasing the number of weapons slots could make it more interesting

I find the strategy in 2 player battling really neat. Its a great game to play

[rabbanmad]

I participated in the last multiplayer war on neo, so i can share my experiences
At my current hp(around 1030 at that time), with an opponent that has the same ammount of health as me, i have 2 options:
1.Freeze in the first turn+drain life, then Gbomb+Sos or PCC if the opponent didn't freeze too, and hope to kill him in the second move.
2. do a TSB+weapon+ drain life and go for a late freeze.
If the other player went for a late freeze,and you chose to freeze in the first turn the option 1 must come with the drain life because:
you get 100hp from your opponent and get him closer to the 880hp limit(or around that, i've never bothered to calculate that) where i can take him down in one hit in the second round.
Anyway, i'm not very good at writing in english, so i won't go in further details.