[split] [TeamIDB] Guild Quest! Next gq: Sunday (note time change!)

[heidirose12345]

Quote:1. When calculations are done per-GQ instead of per-batch-of-GQs, there is a much greater chance of it being a net loss. This is a strong disincentive for boss fighters. The probability of a single GQ being a net loss is fairly high, about 25% I'd guess. The probability of a group of 3 GQ's being a net loss is much lower, maybe 5%.

Graph, that is an issue... remember?

We would never do 3 GQ's in a row with the same people. People always leave/ arrive and sometimes DC

[graphitesmoothie]

Oh, right, I forgot it would be calculated per GQ.

[Togster]

even thought the masses (and more importantly, the "guild uppers"), dont like Yoshis idea (I was one of the ones he was chatting to about it), I shall give my opinion..

After doing 8 GQ's and not getting a single prize, you may say I want the change because I haven't got anything, not strictly true, after at least 3 of them where I used my level 27 warrior (in the days before GQnewbie), and said GQ WOULD NOT have happened had it not been for me on that char, then I feel I have a right to say "hey, if it wasnt for me (and others of course, just making the point that I was the only under 30), this GQ would not have happened, yet others are getting these nice scrolls worth 4/5 mill (overall Luk/Int) and I have got nothing".

Boss fighters, semi-good point, but the profit for all after pots way would still outbalance the losses, at least I feel, when you look at the prizes saturday, more than enough mesos where earned for people who took part to have a share, and at least feel "hey, this is a guild thing, fun first, shared profit second" and not "hey, I need to break as many boxes as possible, screw the rest, I want that sack/scroll worth millions so I make the mesos after tax", to me, this is the wrong attitude we put across.

Like I say, feel free to say its only because I haven't got anything, but I know for a fact I would still agree with Yoshi HAD I got something too.

I am very sure I will get some smart-assed replies, I expect no less for this guild anymore (disregard to under level 100 opinions on alliance, disregard to non-fighters with this), but I thought I may as well post my feelings, then at least no-one can say I didn't make my position and feelings clear.

[regelus]

GQs for fun =/= GQs for profit

In GQs for fun, boss figthers could tax they pots/ME or not. Prizes arent important, it is for fun and an insane amount of non figthers can join the run.

In GQs for profit, the amount of ppl should be fixed, as the amount of run, you couldnt be able to do a decent overall profit (been boss figther or dont and distributing profit equally, taxing or not the pots/ME taxes).
Also, there will be just 1 or at least 2 non figthers.
If Master books will be tradeable, the profit could increase several times and the pots cost wouldnt be a problem. If Master books are not tradeable a system like the one than some guilds use to sell ZHelms maybe would be implemented. And again pots could be taxed easily.
Having 1 or 2 decent DK and 1 or 2 decent Priest in a boss figth should lower the pots count. A 2nd CB would increment the ME cost a bit, but statues and even boss could be cleaned in an easier way.

But the main thing is that if you dont trust in your Guild mates, or they dont trust or believe you... dont even try to do a GQ run with your guild.

[Brett]

I agree with Reg, our current system of using pots is just bad

A DK that can survive a hit from Ergoth (Q? ) would not only add another fighter, but it would also cut the mage's potion use in half, due to the fact that 60% MP is now much more meaningful, etc.

Reg, when you said a second CB, do you mean one that will have better then level 1 ME? Currently the way the boss fight is, you can beat him with max ME in less then 2 seconds, with around 250k.

[Okamoto]

Yeah, I'm with GIR, with my luck, I'd D/C on the only run of the day with decent prizes and would end up with a loss from the other runs. It system stays, or I don't.

[Spaz]

Tog, I pulled us out of the alliance BECAUSE of the other opinions on it. I made a mistake by signing it too soon; I had seen nothing but positive replies and assumed everyone felt the same way. When I realized that that was not the case, I took us out of it.

I had not considered Duey; that greatly mitigates the complexity issue.

Tog, you're disregarding the unfairness to boss fighters (who are not all "guild uppers"; Kem and Krystal helped with summon control Saturday). I seem to use an average of about 200,000 in potions per run. Average profit per run per person is about 378,438. Approximate probability of there being a net loss is about 25%; for simplicity let's assume that that means no prizes at all. With those numbers, my average profit would be 233,829: 62% of what non-fighters would be getting. You cannot call that fair. I will not GQ under such a system.

This could be made fair by making everyone in the GQ share in the loss; however that brings us back to complexity.

[yoshi]

So since it sounds like the system isn't changing, then I'll quit GQing (and most likely quit the guild since I see no reason to stay in it.)

Toodles

[Kirby-oh]

Yoshi, you're being foolish. Sorry, but it's just ridiculous to quit over something this small. If you don't like the system for GQs, I don't fault you for not playing them. But, it's just silly to quit the guild, since there are many other things we do. The most important of which is talking to each other while playing. I couldn't handle Maple without the scintillating conversation. Well, the conversation at least.

[Spaz]

Graphite
Cost: 1,042,200
Prizes: 60% overall luk (4,300,000), 60% overall dex (2,250,000), 60% glove dex (300,000); Total: 6,850,000

Metal
Cost: 3,200,796
Prizes: 60% shoe speed (125,000), 60% overall int (4,400,000), 60% cape luk (2,200,000); Total: 6,725,000

Spaz
Cost: 1,175,200
Prizes: 60% overall int (4,400,000); Total: 4,400,000

regelus
Cost: 183,400
Prizes: 0

Heidi
Cost: 1,133,700
Prizes: 0

Krystal
Cost: 404,280
Prizes: Black Sack (16,000,000), 60% shield def (25,000); Total: 16,025,000

Kem
Cost: nothing claimed
Prizes: 60% shoe dex (300,000); Total: 300,000

sirhatter
Cost: nothing claimed
Prizes: 60% helmet hp (420,000); Total: 420,000


Total cost: 7,139,576
Prizes: 34,720,000
Tax rate: 20.5633%


Graphite owes the collector 1,408,586
Metal owes the collector 1,382,882
Spaz owes the collector 904,785
Krystal owes the collector 3,295,268
Kem owes the collector 61,690
sirhatter owes the collector 86,366


The collector owes Graphite 1,042,200
The collector owes Metal 3,200,796
The collector owes Spaz 1,175,200
The collector owes regelus 183,400
The collector owes Heidi 1,133,700
The collector owes Krystal 404,280


cancelling out...

Graphite owes the collector 366,386
Krystal owes the collector 2,890,988
Kem owes the collector 61,690
sirhatter owes the collector 86,366


The collector owes Metal 1,817,914
The collector owes Spaz 270,415
The collector owes regelus 183,400
The collector owes Heidi 1,133,700


Graphite owes Metal 366,386
Krystal owes Metal 1,451,528
Krystal owes Spaz 270,415
Krystal owes regelus 183,400
Krystal owes Heidi 985,645
Kem owes Heidi 61,690
sirhatter owes Heidi 86,366

From previous GQ's:
Skunk owes Yoshi 652,740
Skunk owes Graphite 895,200
Skunk owes Spaz 353,780

[heidirose12345]

Toggy, with the alliance... was there anybody above level 100 out of you, Mike, me, Krystal, and kem?
Spaz listened, nobody can say he didn't. Nobody can say that this guild is unfair when it comes to this sort of thing.
Also, it is similar to last time. If enough people don't want change... then it should stay how it is. Except this time, the numbers are bigger. More people don't want change. Even more reason to not have it in my opinion...
Also, this really does concern the boss fighters more. Obviously boss fighters don't want to be making a loss just so that other people can profit. The obvious solution for the boss fighters if this went through would be to no longer GQ. And then, whats the point. System changed, we no longer GQ... kinda defeats the purpose huh? Ergoth isn't going to just magically disapear, we need boss fighters to kill him and that requires potions.

Also, we sometimes have only 1 ranged person. Or 1 DS person. And in some cases I have been the only one there not doing anything else that could go on GQNewbie. Though that was more a privilege than being a slave, so that doesn't count. Also, Spaz. He does most of the killing of that boss. There are still people that we couldn't GQ without. Should they get more just because they are required?

I reckon I have been on around 50 GQ's, maybe more. I have gotten a 60% Glove ATK. That is it. It would be nice to get more, but at the end of it, its fun. A break from training, a chance to actually do something as a guild, a chance to just do something different on MS. Its a game... When we eventually stop playing... I have to wonder. Will it be the fun that we had that will be remembered and the times we spent with one another, or will it be how much mesos that we had, and who managed to get profit in GQ?

We GQ for fun AND profit. In the long run, both should come out as long as people actually like being there.
Okay, this isn't completly how it would be because we just wouldn't do the number of GQ's required for it. But something I was thinking about. If everybody was smashing a similar number of boxes everytime, and we did GQ many many times. Everybody will have a similar probability of getting a nice prize. (the variable there that will stop it being completly even is how many boxes are smashed/ person). It's likely that everybody will at least eventually get something. In the long run, the old system will balance out, as well as the boss fighters getting their potions covered for. Under the new system, it will balance out straight away. And infact the non-boss fighters will make slightly more under that system because less of the overall profit will be going into potions. However, this is at the loss of the boss fighters. That can't possibly be fair.

But yeah, I can just see myself getting flamed and disagreed with because of the Black Sack thing. I gave that to Krystal. But really, did it make a difference to anybodys attitude? I can't help but wonder. Also, if stuff like that does happen, if you are the person that thinks the item was yours, then just say so. I must admit I kinda messed up a bit with that, though I didn't realise that it was Krystal's, so yeah. I was excited that I got it, but now that I don't have it, it doesn't exactly bother me. I can easily make mesos another way. I don't want that held against my opinion...


Yoshi, you are one of my favourite people in the guild. I really hate to see you go over this
And I am sure that others feel the same way about you leaving. We don't want to see you gone

Oh, Brett. Just a side note. I did actually speak to Q yesterday about the HB (because I need it as well to stay alive at the same time as keeping potions costs down). He said that he should be able to come in the summer