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I'm just wondering, does Virtublaster 4000 or 5000 ( Not sure if one even exists :P ) do 9 visible icons, but 6 real icons?

Err...I hate to burst bubbles but Vince is right: this is not a discussion about the role of defense against certain weapons, nor is it a discussion about whether the F-Blaster or the DBD is better. It is merely meant to be a post which shines light on the issue of a fractional--an idea which commonly misunderstood in the past (and still continues to be today).

I can't help but clear up a few fallacies I see along the way. Let me just say that all variable weapons are fractionals, and so it doesn't matter if you're looking at a F-Blaster, a W-Claw, or a FSS. In fact, then you end up coupling the idea of an average with the idea of a fractional--and that's where it gets really confusing. I merely used the F-Blaster because it's one of the few constant type fractional weapons (though by no means the only one). Thus, although you might argue that fractionals really only are misunderstood in the lower levels, I would beg to differ: I think they are misunderstood throughout. The difference is when you get to the range of a G-Sword, you don't have tons of alternatives when compared to the range of a F-Blaster. Thus, through solitary neglect, the essence of a fractional is forgotten. Ironically, this is how I think it should be throughout the dome.

If you want to discuss any of the above topics, please create your own topic in this forum. That is what it was made for after all.

Quote:Originally posted by stimulatus@Oct 25 2004, 02:40 AM
Your weapon did not suddenly get worse because you've realized that its not doing EXACTLY what is displayed. It will work just the same, and just as efficiently.

You could easily attribute fractionals as a state of mind. A variable weapon will do an average, and rarely will that average be constant. Really, that is all you need to concern yourself with: the actual icon's done.

I was looking around and decided to see what this topic had to say. I think you're right -- assuming the weapon stats don't change, then it works the same before you find out that it has fractional icons as after. You just need to think about it a little differently and base your comparisons on what it actually does, even if the icons show something else.

But I'm new around here and trying to learn some of the details that will help me in the BD. From other posts, it seems like the fractional icons don't have as much impact on the stronger weapon as the weaker ones. I'm working with the weaker ones though. So maybe you experienced battlers can give me a better sense of how much difference it makes at lower levels. For a fractional example, let's take the Hand Painted Scarab which displays 6 icons, 2 each of 3 types, but apparently does 4.6 icons damage, I guess like 1.5 or so of each type. Other weapons are apparently constant 6 icons (Lost Desert Dagger, Scarab Stone Slingshot, some scrolls), usually of 2 types. Prices float around the 5k-15k range, I suppose, nothing so high priced I can't afford them. Cost/icon is probably lower on the HPS than something like the LDD though. Is it better to stick with the constant 6 over the fractional 6 that really does 4.6? With low weapons and stats, I'm not going to get huge boosts or inflict massive damage per strike. Do I need that extra ~1.5 icons more than say the variety of having 3 icon types instead of 2? (HPS has defense, too, which is nice.) I don't know if I'll ever get up to being a serious, high level battler, generally I just battle for secret avatars, but anything you can do to help me (and others I guess) with lower level info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

Dronak, your question is very appropriate for these forums, but I'm afraid that you'd be better off asking it in the context of the larger forum environment rather than on this board which is rarely visited.

First off, you're absolutely right: it's all about how you think of things. Glad to see you've got that concept down :) With regards to higher versus lower weapons and the effects of fractionals, they are the same. The difference of course is that in the upper echelons, you have TONS of icons, and thus a relatively low percentage will be affected. In turn, this makes the deviation less in terms of percentages. However, in terms of quantitative impact, you've got equivalent amounts between the two levels.

Onto your question: I don't advise dropping below 6 icons in the battledome. Period. At that point, the price differential is minimal, and so that isn't much of a concern. However, 6 has become a "standard" of sorts, and thus I would recommend making it as low as you will go. This 6 however, is a total six. Thta is to say, 4 icons of attack and 2 of defense count as six, but this makes the assumption of defensive training. Then there is the issue of icon variety, which again influences weapons choice. However, again I would refer you to post in the larger setting (and thus will wait until you do taht to post my suggestion ;)). Lots of factors play in here, and encorporating all of them in this thread would make it unecessarily long :P

I'll be waiting ;)

to me, in lower level battling, .5 icon wont matter TOO much because you gotta figure, you may only be doing .5 or 1 damage per icon, so lets say there is the 4.5 icons and a lost desert dagger 6, and if you are doing .5 damage per icon (go look at str boost topc, article if you are confused, heh id put a link but im not sure where its listed) then
Hand Painted Scarab
4.5 * .5 = 2.25

Lost Desert Dagger
6 * .5 = 3

now is .75 damage really going to make a difference? i dont think so, and yes i have experience battles where they survived cuz they had 1 hp left, there is also the other factors to consider, hand painted scarab also has 4 icons of defence, and 4 * .5 = 2, so then the equation looks like:

Hand Painted Scarab
2.25 Damage, 2 hp defended (depending on the icons used against you)

Lost Desert Dagger
3 Damage

so then the hand painted scarab is starting to look like a much better weapon, BUT the quality of the weapon depends on your fighting style, if you are a defensive battler, then hand painted scarab is great for you (but scarab ring could be better), if you are offensive, the lost desert dagger is probably the more practiical of the two because 3 damage is more than 2 damage...(but scarab ring could be better)

i hope this helped!

Yeah, it looks like there are a lot of things to consider when choosing and rating weapons, something I'm pretty new to. It did seem like 6 icon weapons were standard, but I didn't realize you could also count defense icons into it. So the HPS which does 4.6 icons attack and has variable defense with 4 icons standard (PPWW), is still an acceptable weapon? The defense icons help make up for the lack of attack icons?

I've read about the strength and defense boosts, so I think I have a good idea how they work. My pet hasn't been seriously trained, but still has 42 STR and 36 DEF for 1.5 multipliers on both if I'm looking at the right chart. I think most of that has come from faerie quests; when I trained, it was normally for HP (and she has 37 right now). I do see your point about battle style, but I'm not sure I have a strong preference right now. Defense helps keep me alive, good since my HP total is low. But more attack could end the fight sooner, also good. Maybe that's something I have to explore more on my own, which style works better for me.

Thanks for the info. I'll see what I can do with it.

I guess TNT likes to fool newbies with display icons. <a style='color:red' onclick="window.open('http://idb.finalhit.org/minicheck.php?Hand Painted Scarab','minicheck','width=580,height=250,resizable=yes,scrollbars=yes'); return false" href='j;'>Hand Painted Scarab</a> could be a good example. But, it is underrated, because people neglect its defense.

Quote:Originally posted by sycthos@May 15 2005, 10:42 AM
I guess TNT likes to fool newbies with display icons. <a style='color:red' onclick="window.open('http://idb.finalhit.org/minicheck.php?Hand Painted Scarab','minicheck','width=580,height=250,resizable=yes,scrollbars=yes'); return false" href='j;'>Hand Painted Scarab</a> could be a good example. But, it is underrated, because people neglect its defense.

Well maybe it wasn't on purpose.
TNT probably just punches in a number, and the system automatically figures out the icons displayed, etc.

My opinion on fractionals is just ignore the fact that it's fractional, and take the actual amount.
I'm kind of annoyed at people who quiver in fear of a weapon simply because it's fractional.
Take HPS, it's a 4.6 icon, so don't compare it to a 4 icon weapon or 5 icon weapon. Sure the 0.4 icons makes a difference, but it's better than a 4 icon weapon nonetheless.
If you take that as basis of your opinion, then an entire icon - 4 icon vs 5 icon is of greater magnitude than 4.6 icons vs 5 icons.
I just understand that 4.6 will always be closer to 5 icons than 4 icons, so it should be given the credit of that fact.

If a weapon is 5.9 icons, and people argue that the 0.1 icons makes a difference, then a 6.1 icon weapon should also be much, much better than a 6 icon weapon. It's not, so therefore the 5.9 icon weapon isn't a great deal worse than a 6 icon weapon either.

I understand that the risk is always there, oh yes.
4.6 icons will never ever be better than 5 icons, and that is a fact.
You need to treat the 0.4 icon difference as it is, a 0.4 icon difference. Don't think of it as simply being a "fractional", but understand that the total icons is simply about half an icon less.
With a weapon like Florbix Blaster that has 7.73 icons, it will never drop to the likes of a 7 icon weapon, and you need to treat it as such. Just understand that there is only a .27 icon difference.

Quote:Originally posted by t4kato@May 23 2005, 01:08 PM
Well maybe it wasn't on purpose.
TNT probably just punches in a number, and the system automatically figures out the icons displayed, etc.

My opinion on fractionals is just ignore the fact that it's fractional, and take the actual amount.
I'm kind of annoyed at people who quiver in fear of a weapon simply because it's fractional.
Take HPS, it's a 4.6 icon, so don't compare it to a 4 icon weapon or 5 icon weapon. Sure the 0.4 icons makes a difference, but it's better than a 4 icon weapon nonetheless.
If you take that as basis of your opinion, then an entire icon - 4 icon vs 5 icon is of greater magnitude than 4.6 icons vs 5 icons.
I just understand that 4.6 will always be closer to 5 icons than 4 icons, so it should be given the credit of that fact.

If a weapon is 5.9 icons, and people argue that the 0.1 icons makes a difference, then a 6.1 icon weapon should also be much, much better than a 6 icon weapon. It's not, so therefore the 5.9 icon weapon isn't a great deal worse than a 6 icon weapon either.

I understand that the risk is always there, oh yes.
4.6 icons will never ever be better than 5 icons, and that is a fact.
You need to treat the 0.4 icon difference as it is, a 0.4 icon difference. Don't think of it as simply being a "fractional", but understand that the total icons is simply about half an icon less.
With a weapon like Florbix Blaster that has 7.73 icons, it will never drop to the likes of a 7 icon weapon, and you need to treat it as such. Just understand that there is only a .27 icon difference.

im not sure i 100% understood that but i agree... i almost never look at fractionals because its never really that much different from the original icons!unless of course a weapon does 8 air icons and it says that each air icon is 0.5..then its a waste... did i make any sense because i dont think i made much :blink:

Not really...

Just re-think about the <a style='color:red' onclick="window.open('http://idb.finalhit.org/minicheck.php?Hand Painted Scarab','minicheck','width=580,height=250,resizable=yes,scrollbars=yes'); return false" href='j;'>Hand Painted Scarab</a>'s attack.

Attack: *fire**fire**light**light**air**air*
Defense: Unimportant for now

Pretty appealing to the eye, eh?
But, unfortunately, the weapon only does about 4.6 icons.

Attack: *fire* 0.54 *fire* *light* 0.54 *light* *air* 0.54 *air*
Defense: Unimportant for now

Not as good now, right?
A total of about 1.4 icons were taken away because of the fractional icons.

*NOTE*Only the last icon of one icon type can be a fractional. The ones in front are always full.

For example:

Possible:
Some Air Weapon:

Attack: *air* 0.5 *air*

Impossible
Some Badly Made Air Weapon:

Attack: *air* 0.5 *air*
-OR-
Attack: 0.5 *air* 0.5 *air*

Ok, every one of us understand that 1.4 icons were taken away.
Just treat it as a 4.6 icon weapon.
Then take the defense of 4 icons, and due to the commonness of water and physical, divide that by 3 and you get 1.3 icons.
4.6 + 1.3 = 6.9 icons worth for 7K.
Just because the attack is fractional doesn't mean it nullifies it's uses.
In addition to the defense, HPS is a very useful weapon.

Have I also forgotten to mention that even though fractional, light and air are one of the best icons?