01-08-2008, 04:57 AM
I've been labbing pets for more than a year now and sometimes it feels like there is no progress or the results are flying in the face of the conventional wisdom about what the Lab can achieve.
Currently I'm at the 6 codestones/12 hours regime which seems to be start of the worst period of advancement as the next plateau is 18 hours a stat point and then 24 hours a stat point. At the 5 codestones/8 hours type, I could consistently comfortably achieve about 60 stat points in a month.
At current Mystery School level I can get about 45 stat points (3 stat points every 2 days - sleep and the real world do intrude) a month. I expect it to reduce even further with the next 2 stages.
The Neopets site is mature but continues to evolve and as someone pointed out training has never been easy but it certainly is not getting any easier nor cheaper. The reality is that based on current available training and rapidly spiralling upward costs, there is nil chance of reaching the superpet ranks for anyone that is starting now or even started in the past couple of years. However, that shouldn't stop anyone from training an impressive pet.
I'm not much of a battler but train as I like the idea of having a developed pet that doesn't get too much sand kicked in his face in the 1P arena so Shacho gets his daily fix and will do for the foreseeable future.
Recent threads have touched on the rising cost of training but apart from kagemucha's Lab results tracking spreadsheet elsewhere here, I haven't seen much else though there is a lot of 'when I was....' and 'I haven't looked at it lately....' comments.
Like most people I also know the Lab is weighted and suspect it has been 'adjusted' a few times over the years but that shouldn't prevent an attempt to quantify the cost/benefit. If you break the quantification period down to manageable levels (based on the Mystery Island Training School types), you can quickly measure the cost/time benefit. The same applies for The Academy but at that low level of pet, there are other considerations. I don't have access to the Ninja School but as I understand that it uses red codestones, I would guess that the same principles apply.
Based on that you can start to quantify the costs and benefits using the following assumptions/parameters with my current training regime as one example:
1. Assuming no labbing and no special events.
2. Training is only Level, HP, Strength and Defence.
3. As movement/agility has no real benefit unless you want those weapons that need it, this would be not be trained or kept within the minimum acceptable level.
4. The 2x training cycle/ratio is strictly kept to keep costs down ie, Level is always close to half of HP/Strength and if you wish Defence.
5. If necessary labbing stops to keep these ratios correct.
On that basis for the 6 codestones type, I would need to roughly train:
Level - 121-150 : 30 stats
HP - 242 - 300 : 58 stats
Strength - 242 - 300 : 58 stats
Defence - 242 - 300 : 58 stats.
Total stat points: 204 stats (give or take)
This equals at least 136 days (3 stat points every 2 days) to get through the Expert type at Mystery Island. Codestones at the moment average 7,650 (about), and I need 6 so each stat point is costing me 45,900nps. Of course like most people I wiz for the cheaper codestones, so rarely pay this but let's assume I do. 204x45,900 = 9,363,600nps (or about on average 68,850 each day).
So to get through this Expert level : 9.3million and about 136 days. If you train less, time is longer but cost is the same.
If you finish earlier that the required days, say 110 days then labbing has a quantifiable benefit as the cost has been 68,850x110 = 7,573,500 which means the lab has saved you about 1.8 million or saved you the cost of roughly 40 stat points. The Lab is one-off cost (currently) of about 600,000 for a complete set so in one training level, you can repay the outlay and still see savings of about 1.2 million and of course after that there is no cost.
You can apply this calculation to any level you wish and I am working on spreadsheet that one can put in start stats and desired result to pump out the time/cost but it is not debugged yet.
Everyone pretty much knows that there are other ways to get stats such as Terror Trove, Kitchen Quests, Neggs etc. The problem with these is the randomness of the result. You can't choose which pet gets the result and so if you have more than one pet, the success rate is diluted. The suggestion to reduce pets so all the benefit falls on the one pet is a good one but with the pound/adoption channel down now for six (?) months, that way is blocked and also most people like more than one pet.
Terror Trove cards are easy enough - get 5 a day and scratch them. Personally I have not had a lot of luck with them but have found rather than help with stats the winnings help with buying the codestones so they form a very small direct part of the stat gains.
Kitchen quests are able to be more quantifiable, though the question is always how much to spend on a quest. Basically, if you can assume that 1 quest every second day will be successful and you are spending as I am 68,000np a day on training that is your budget for all the quests - 34,000 a day.
I don't rely or expect Faerie quests but combining them with Kitchen Quests and Terror trove cards, and assume one stat gain every second day but spread over 3 pets, gives the training pet one stat point every 6 days or 23 stats over the period. As my costs go higher, I can spend more and still be quantifiably better off, providing I keep the costs below the codestone cost.
There is a flaw in the above - 6 days @ 34,000np = 204,000nps to get one stat point is too expensive compared to the codestone cost, so the only alternatives are to either reduce the Quest outlay or realise that at this point in training Kitchen quests are quantifiably not cost effective though as your training costs rise, they will become so. It can be inferred that Kitchen Quests are only economic for stronger pets.
In summary, at the Expert Level at the Mystery training school to get through that level you need to achieve 204 stat points at about 46,000nps for the required 6 codestones. If you can maintain 3 stat points every 2 days that will take 134 days and 9.3million NPs. Every day less than that by using the Lab, translates into savings.
It's therefore not a difficult exercise to quantify the cost/benefit of using the Lab at any point.
Part II (if there is interest) is quantifying the cost of getting a pet back into line after nothing but extended labbing.
Currently I'm at the 6 codestones/12 hours regime which seems to be start of the worst period of advancement as the next plateau is 18 hours a stat point and then 24 hours a stat point. At the 5 codestones/8 hours type, I could consistently comfortably achieve about 60 stat points in a month.
At current Mystery School level I can get about 45 stat points (3 stat points every 2 days - sleep and the real world do intrude) a month. I expect it to reduce even further with the next 2 stages.
The Neopets site is mature but continues to evolve and as someone pointed out training has never been easy but it certainly is not getting any easier nor cheaper. The reality is that based on current available training and rapidly spiralling upward costs, there is nil chance of reaching the superpet ranks for anyone that is starting now or even started in the past couple of years. However, that shouldn't stop anyone from training an impressive pet.
I'm not much of a battler but train as I like the idea of having a developed pet that doesn't get too much sand kicked in his face in the 1P arena so Shacho gets his daily fix and will do for the foreseeable future.
Recent threads have touched on the rising cost of training but apart from kagemucha's Lab results tracking spreadsheet elsewhere here, I haven't seen much else though there is a lot of 'when I was....' and 'I haven't looked at it lately....' comments.
Like most people I also know the Lab is weighted and suspect it has been 'adjusted' a few times over the years but that shouldn't prevent an attempt to quantify the cost/benefit. If you break the quantification period down to manageable levels (based on the Mystery Island Training School types), you can quickly measure the cost/time benefit. The same applies for The Academy but at that low level of pet, there are other considerations. I don't have access to the Ninja School but as I understand that it uses red codestones, I would guess that the same principles apply.
Based on that you can start to quantify the costs and benefits using the following assumptions/parameters with my current training regime as one example:
1. Assuming no labbing and no special events.
2. Training is only Level, HP, Strength and Defence.
3. As movement/agility has no real benefit unless you want those weapons that need it, this would be not be trained or kept within the minimum acceptable level.
4. The 2x training cycle/ratio is strictly kept to keep costs down ie, Level is always close to half of HP/Strength and if you wish Defence.
5. If necessary labbing stops to keep these ratios correct.
On that basis for the 6 codestones type, I would need to roughly train:
Level - 121-150 : 30 stats
HP - 242 - 300 : 58 stats
Strength - 242 - 300 : 58 stats
Defence - 242 - 300 : 58 stats.
Total stat points: 204 stats (give or take)
This equals at least 136 days (3 stat points every 2 days) to get through the Expert type at Mystery Island. Codestones at the moment average 7,650 (about), and I need 6 so each stat point is costing me 45,900nps. Of course like most people I wiz for the cheaper codestones, so rarely pay this but let's assume I do. 204x45,900 = 9,363,600nps (or about on average 68,850 each day).
So to get through this Expert level : 9.3million and about 136 days. If you train less, time is longer but cost is the same.
If you finish earlier that the required days, say 110 days then labbing has a quantifiable benefit as the cost has been 68,850x110 = 7,573,500 which means the lab has saved you about 1.8 million or saved you the cost of roughly 40 stat points. The Lab is one-off cost (currently) of about 600,000 for a complete set so in one training level, you can repay the outlay and still see savings of about 1.2 million and of course after that there is no cost.
You can apply this calculation to any level you wish and I am working on spreadsheet that one can put in start stats and desired result to pump out the time/cost but it is not debugged yet.
Everyone pretty much knows that there are other ways to get stats such as Terror Trove, Kitchen Quests, Neggs etc. The problem with these is the randomness of the result. You can't choose which pet gets the result and so if you have more than one pet, the success rate is diluted. The suggestion to reduce pets so all the benefit falls on the one pet is a good one but with the pound/adoption channel down now for six (?) months, that way is blocked and also most people like more than one pet.
Terror Trove cards are easy enough - get 5 a day and scratch them. Personally I have not had a lot of luck with them but have found rather than help with stats the winnings help with buying the codestones so they form a very small direct part of the stat gains.
Kitchen quests are able to be more quantifiable, though the question is always how much to spend on a quest. Basically, if you can assume that 1 quest every second day will be successful and you are spending as I am 68,000np a day on training that is your budget for all the quests - 34,000 a day.
I don't rely or expect Faerie quests but combining them with Kitchen Quests and Terror trove cards, and assume one stat gain every second day but spread over 3 pets, gives the training pet one stat point every 6 days or 23 stats over the period. As my costs go higher, I can spend more and still be quantifiably better off, providing I keep the costs below the codestone cost.
There is a flaw in the above - 6 days @ 34,000np = 204,000nps to get one stat point is too expensive compared to the codestone cost, so the only alternatives are to either reduce the Quest outlay or realise that at this point in training Kitchen quests are quantifiably not cost effective though as your training costs rise, they will become so. It can be inferred that Kitchen Quests are only economic for stronger pets.
In summary, at the Expert Level at the Mystery training school to get through that level you need to achieve 204 stat points at about 46,000nps for the required 6 codestones. If you can maintain 3 stat points every 2 days that will take 134 days and 9.3million NPs. Every day less than that by using the Lab, translates into savings.
It's therefore not a difficult exercise to quantify the cost/benefit of using the Lab at any point.
Part II (if there is interest) is quantifying the cost of getting a pet back into line after nothing but extended labbing.
