iDB Community Forum

I'm kind of new to the battledome feature of Neopets, and I have several questions that is kind of bugging me:
First, I heard about the strength and defence boost, which stops when both values is at 700. So after (or if ever) my strength and defence hits 700, I should stop training it?
Second, I want you guys' input on whether or not defence is worth training. If it is, to what extent should I train it to? Please keep in mind that I'm new to the battledome and, therefore, will not know most of the items' acronyms.
I would like to thank you guys in advance for helping me out and bearing with me.

Since there's no point in training after 700, would you?

If you're using full blockers (Illusens Silver Shield, Shadow Shield) then don't bother with DEF. But chances are, you're not always going to use full blockers. That's why DEF is worth training for.

So the damage and defence formula is base on the boost, not the actual values themselves? And if I'm training defence, is it either 700 or none? Or is there a median somewhere?

Stop training upon reaching 700(if you lab, train to make up for loss maybe, usually in def. or levels, but besides that, you dont need to train past 700).

the boost come in ranges, which u can find in another post somewhere around here (the early ones are like 1-34, 35-54, 55-84, 85-124, and i dont know anything past that), with the last one terminating in 700+ (so it's not based on the number itself, it's based on what range your number is in)

Defense or not to defense... classic question, of which mathbits answered pretty well, but just some more details:

if you use full blockers, you don't need to train def. as he said (but it's always nice to have just in case)
(Ring of the Lost, a common full blocker, falls in this category even though it's a dual duty, because it's a full dark blocker; Faerie Tabard, Ghostkershield, Pirate Captains Hat, etc. are some common full-blocker-only weapons)

if you use dual duties (Golden Compass, Scarab Ring, Thief Dagger, etc.), you need to train defense, as they block set icons (and usually, dual duties are nice for mid and lower level;
atm, i cant think of very many high (but not extremely high) level dual duties (e.g. in the Ultra Bubble Gun or Sword of Skardsen range) OH NVM EDIT: Mask of Coltzan!!!

if you use set-amount icon blockers (e.g. Leaf Shield, Patched Magic Hat, Sophies Magic Hat), you need to train defense.

as you can see, unless you plan to hold off on 2p (or battling for that matter) until your 700 boost (which will mean very late game, or until you can get enough money to go straight to a UBG (ultra bubble gun) class (this class includes weapons like werelupe claw necklace, SoS (sword of skardsen), ultra bubble gun itself, and Porcelain Hair Sticks), or if you plan to go straight for 100% blockers (or %age reflectors), training defense will undoubtedly be important as their role in dual duties and defense-only weapons.

Alright, thanks for the help. I do plan to just stay away from 2p until I earn those high iconers. I know it'll be a long way but I think my patience can handle it. But then I don't tend to get full blockers, so would you guys still recommend me training defence? I might get a high dual duty weapon or two, and I'm planning to get on a G-Shield. So with those things in mind, would you still recommend me training defence?

If you're even considering a G-shield then train defense. Otherwise a Ring of the Lost is better.

Alright, thanks again for all of your help. And yeah I would probably use G-shield because of its multi-icon blocker, not just the full dark block.

iViet Wrote:I'm kind of new to the battledome feature of Neopets, and I have several questions that is kind of bugging me:

Well, the previous answers you've gotten on this forum are kind of bugging me, so let's see if I can do better:

Quote:First, I heard about the strength and defence boost, which stops when both values is at 700. So after (or if ever) my strength and defence hits 700, I should stop training it?

For an explanation of boosts, see the beatmetoapulp petpage. They are also explained many other places, but that page is probably the best. You are correct in that the precise value does not matter, only the boost. A pet with 40 Str and a pet with 54 str are both 35 boost, and will both deal the same damage (if everything else is equal), but a pet with 55 str is 55 boost and will therefore deal more damage than a pet with 54 str (again assuming that everything else is equal.

There is no advantage to be gained by having Strength or Defense above 700. However, many of the more economical high-end training strategies gain you a random stat (k-quests, lab, coltzan), so a number of top pets do end up with Str and/or Def values well in excess of 700.

Quote:Second, I want you guys' input on whether or not defence is worth training. If it is, to what extent should I train it to? Please keep in mind that I'm new to the battledome and, therefore, will not know most of the items' acronyms.

Easy answer first: the xcombat petpage has most of the common BD item acronyms on it. My DemoiselleRogue petpage has a list of most worthwhile weapons on it.

As to whether defense is worth training: that's constantly under debate even among the most knowledgeable battledomers. My stock answer to a new battledomer is: train defense even with Strength up to the 85 boost, since you can get most of the way there using the usually cheaper Dubloon training. While you're training to there, experiment with offensive and defensive strategies and weapons and figure out which you prefer. Then once you are at 85 Str and 85 Defense and have some experience decide if you are going to keep training evenly, or if you are going to give up on defense entirely or if you want to have a so-called "tank" pet with defense much higher than its Strength.

As to a summary of the larger debate, here are some of the reasons for training defense:

• At the low to mid range, defensive weapons tend to be a lot cheaper than offensive weapons, which can make defensive strategies very economical in 2player
• The two most common league structures (Str boost-based battling and the NCW leagues) severely undervalue defense, giving defensive battlers large advantages in many two player events. (although in fairness the NCW league "interim adjustment" overvalues defense for some pets)
• If you are trying to climb the high score charts for certain 1p opponents (brain tree), the most efficient way to reduce them to an average net per round damage of zero or less, and thereby have possibly infinite wins is to have a large defense boost.
• If you ever change you mind, defense becomes a lot more expensive to train later, as it is the hardest / most expensive stat to gain from methods other than the training schools
  

It's worth noting that the last point there could become very meaningful if new weapons are released.


Here are some of the reasons against training defense

• The NP and codestones spent on defense could instead be used to buy additional Str or Hit Points.
• All standard 1p challengers can be beat at least once without the use of any weapons that rely on defense boost.
• If you are beating a 1p opponent multiple times, they will eventually reach the 700 Str boost, which means that unless you have a defense boost near 700, they will eventually be doing more damage than your defense boost is blocking (except in cases where you can block multiple icons for each icon they deal)
• With higher-end weapons, full blockers (Illusens Silver Shield and reflectors (Triple Turbo Sryer) are at least as good overall as shields that require a meaningful defense boost.
  

It's worth noting that points 1,3 and 4 taken together suggest that if you're going to give up on defense, you're best off giving up on defense as soon as possible. There really is no happy medium or interim value - you want a value near 700 or you want to start putting those codestones towards more Str and HP instead of defense as soon as you can.

Quote:I would like to thank you guys in advance for helping me out and bearing with me.

Hopefully that cleared some things up for you.

Thanks Rabid for listing the pros and cons. I think I'll stick with training defence because the cons you've listed isn't a problem for me, except for the NP spent on leveling them, and I'm probably not going to go full blockers and reflectors. And thank you for the acronym page.

I'll toss in a couple of pennies worth of thoughts here as well. I think Rabid did a fine job of explaining the general defensive debate. I'll add a couple of points. If you ever aspire to having an elite battle pet, I think defense is necessary. As the battledome is currently structured you're only allowed to carry eight weapons. As there are seven types of attack that would need to be blocked, unless you're rich enough to afford 100% blockers that defend multiple icon types, you're not going to be able to use full blockers to cover all bases. This implies that most battlers will reserve one spot in their lineup for a freezer, one for a healer and most, one for a bomb. Also, unless you're rich enough to have full-blocking DUAL DUTIES, your own attack options would be very limited and easily defended by an opponent. If you're able to generate enough nps to earn the type of weapons to both train an elite battlepet AND fund full defensive blocking DUAL DUTIES (i.e., you're one of the top .01% np earners in the game), the higher you train, the more useful defense will be to you. I personally view having 700 defense to be nps well spent, and don't regret the looooooong time and MANY neopoints involved in attaining it.